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Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:56 pm
by wolf2uk
Lighthouse wrote:May's deal only kept us (or just NI if we preferred) in a customs union with the EU for as long as it look to find a solution to the Irish border.

So it depends on whether you think that would happen or not.
Well to be frank, it's taken over 3 yrs to implement the referendum result, I would not be optimistic to see any change for at least 10yrs, but it rather depends on whether the EU as we know it will last that long.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:30 pm
by Stormy
Hopefully not! It's well overdue to go the same way as the Roman Empire and more recently the Thousand Year Reich. Bring it on! What will all those apparatchiks do, when their gravy train grinds to a halt?

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:55 am
by wolf2uk
Stormy wrote:Hopefully not! It's well overdue to go the same way as the Roman Empire and more recently the Thousand Year Reich. Bring it on! What will all those apparatchiks do, when their gravy train grinds to a halt?
Very good question, but don't wait up for an answer. The systems you quoted were some time ago, before people were able to "instantly" commutate with each other. So now we have in in-depth view of what Politicians and those that lead the EU say, that is before they can reverse and "speak EU speak".
Boris is trying to follow what people (the majority) voted for, but he is also trying to talk sense to those who don't have to justify their actions to the people who vote for them, because they don't need to.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:51 am
by Lighthouse
All MPs have to justify their actions to their constituents though, or risk loss of the seat or even de-selection.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:20 pm
by Stormy
It will be very interesting to see who will lose their seats, come the election. In many cases, it will be somewhat predictable.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:36 pm
by wolf2uk
Lighthouse wrote:All MPs have to justify their actions to their constituents though, or risk loss of the seat or even de-selection.
And, just for the sake of argument, when did any Elected M.P. go back to his or hers, constituency, and asked how they should vote? The damage has been done, so at the next election, lets really hope that who ever stands tells the truth.

An up date as to how the President of the European Parliament feels (today Sky News)on the UK leaving with no deal.
The president of the European Parliament has told Sky News that a no-deal Brexit could be a "catastrophe" and Boris Johnson needs to "feel this responsibility" as the clock ticks towards the deadline for Britain's EU exit. David Sassoli said it is "painful" to think about such a scenario being realised, as it will "put the UK's exit in a tunnel from which we don't know how to come out".
"There could be problems with economy, security… there could also be a catastrophe," he said.
"We don't know that. And that's why I invited PM Johnson to feel this responsibility."
I just wonder if on reflection, he the so called President is more then a little concerned, but his job!!!!

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:10 pm
by Lighthouse
Not sure why his job would be in danger.
MPs liaise with the constituency parties all the time and also communicate with their constituents. I’m sure they have a feel for local sentiment and also how leaving the EU will affect their local area. Often for the worse.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:03 pm
by John o Wirral
Mmm, begs the question why every MP didn't take his Constituency's vote on Credit as a mandate and therefore vote that way.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:29 am
by wolf2uk
Lighthouse wrote:Not sure why his job would be in danger.
MPs liaise with the constituency parties all the time and also communicate with their constituents. I’m sure they have a feel for local sentiment and also how leaving the EU will affect their local area. Often for the worse.
So, that would assume that every M.P. went back to his constituency, and asked, repeat asked, how the people wanted them to vote? Are we really sure that happened?
As for the question as to " a danger losing his job", well when, we finally break free of the Bureaucrats nightmare (led by Germany) there will a growing problem in the EU as other countries see what we have achieved and just might follow suit.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:34 am
by wolf2uk
John o Wirral wrote:Mmm, begs the question why every MP didn't take his Constituency's vote on Credit as a mandate and therefore vote that way.
If that had have happened, it's very more then certain we would not be in the mess we are. Simply because those that run the EU, would not have tried in every way possible to disrupt what the Majority voted for.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:56 pm
by Lighthouse
John o Wirral wrote:Mmm, begs the question why every MP didn't take his Constituency's vote on Credit as a mandate and therefore vote that way.
But there’s no mandate for any particular form of Brexit, so each MP can decide what’s best and block any forms that they judge harmful to their constituents.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:14 am
by wolf2uk
Lighthouse wrote:
John o Wirral wrote:Mmm, begs the question why every MP didn't take his Constituency's vote on Credit as a mandate and therefore vote that way.
But there’s no mandate for any particular form of Brexit, so each MP can decide what’s best and block any forms that they judge harmful to their constituents.
Forgive, but the Election paper I had was "Leave or Stay" or words that reflect that meaning, not any if's or buts.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:22 pm
by Lighthouse
But no vote on any method, so no MP is tied to any method.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:49 pm
by wolf2uk
Lighthouse wrote:But no vote on any method, so no MP is tied to any method.
Not sure I understand, Are you posting that an M.P. does not have to reflect what his or her, voters want? And again, the Referendum was not whether an increase on Tax, whether M.P.s should wear red hats, it was whether the UK should leave or stay in the EU. That was a question which every M.P. should be made aware of not their opinion but the people's opinion. It's called Democracy something sadly lacking in the EU at this time. Or as a question, when a deal has been worked out will the President of the EU ask for a vote in each country for approval, that is a peoples vote?

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:57 am
by Lighthouse
wolf2uk wrote:Not sure I understand, Are you posting that an M.P. does not have to reflect what his or her, voters want?
As previously discussed, MPs can use their own judgment when voting.

And no MP knows from the referendum what leave method their voters want, just broad Leave or Remain. So a leave-favouring MP might still vote against May's deal or no-deal, because they don't like that method.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:02 pm
by Lighthouse
wolf2uk wrote:Or as a question, when a deal has been worked out will the President of the EU ask for a vote in each country for approval, that is a peoples vote?
A referendum in each EU country on the UK's deal? Errrr no.

But the leaders of each country will vote on it.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:32 pm
by wolf2uk
Lighthouse wrote:
wolf2uk wrote:Or as a question, when a deal has been worked out will the President of the EU ask for a vote in each country for approval, that is a peoples vote?
A referendum in each EU country on the UK's deal? Errrr no.

But the leaders of each country will vote on it.
But will they reflect what their people want? That is the question and is why the EU lacks Democracy. Very much like the so called remainers M.P.s who are in Parliament, defying the Peoples vote to leave. It's very much like Mrs May's so called deal, which was "thrown out" by M.P.s, but now we have a chance because Boris used the "No Deal" to make the Bureaucrats start to negotiate again. What ever the deal that Boris "has forced" the EU to look at, it could have been done and dusted during the Past three years it's taken for us to leave. But because the un-Democrat Remainers resisted all efforts to come to terms they lost, we have been waiting, and waiting. This mess, has certainly shaken my belief in Democracy.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:04 pm
by Lighthouse
You may as well ask if any of the UK PMs who voted in the EU reflected the view of voters here. Whatever, they are elected and so they get to do it!

The EU are negotiating because Boris finally came up with proposals for the Irish border. But will they meet with approval in Ireland and Northern Ireland and will MPs vote for it. Too soon to tell.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:31 am
by wolf2uk
The EU are negotiating because Boris finally came up with proposals for the Irish border. But will they meet with approval in Ireland and Northern Ireland and will MPs vote for it. Too soon to tell. Light House
I disagree. The real reason we are in any negotiations is simple Boris said "OK we leave with no deal". That's what got the leaders of the EU (Germany and France) to put pressure on the Bureaucrats, to see sense.
If after all the "showmanship" the EU has been "showing", it comes down to who loses most. And yes if we do leave with no deal, it will cause problems for us, but if you just "Blink" and then look at what will happen to the exports plus trade, that they will lose, it makes one think what is happening, it's Panic, because of the short fall in payments, and the disruption of trade with us. Southern Ireland will suffer greatly and possible a great deal of un-employment. The fact that no deal will stop or hold up their imports travelling through the UK, which will be a great loss.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:01 pm
by Lighthouse
Boris was talking of no-deal since he took office. He was asked for proposals to replace the backstop. When he came forward with none, negotiations didn't start. When he did, they did start.

It's the backstop or something else that offers the same guarantees of avoiding a hard border between Eire and NI and keeping the EU single market intact. They are negotiating the latter at the moment. For it to work it must be agreed by all sides.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:30 pm
by wolf2uk
Lighthouse wrote:Boris was talking of no-deal since he took office. He was asked for proposals to replace the backstop. When he came forward with none, negotiations didn't start. When he did, they did start.

It's the backstop or something else that offers the same guarantees of avoiding a hard border between Eire and NI and keeping the EU single market intact. They are negotiating the latter at the moment. For it to work it must be agreed by all sides.
When entering any negotiations, it's very wise not to put "all your cards face up". Boris did make the Bureaucrats, "sit up" and start to realize No Deal could happen, and that's what got them off their comfortable chairs and begin to see sense.
As for the so called Back stop as I have posted before the main "theme" is not the EU and it's hold on Southern Ireland (huge debts) but that the Republic of Southern Ireland wants a united Ireland and so is using this "Hard Border" as weapon, with the help of the EU to try and force this United Ireland on Northern Ireland and the UK.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:00 pm
by Lighthouse
It's long past the time to play cards close. That might have been sensible at the start but it's way too late. The EU have been consistent all along. No hard border and protect their market.

The UK signed the GFA, so we need to avoid a hard border as well.

But leaving the EU customs union creates the need for customs checks, somehow and somewhere. Unless NI alone stays part of it, but they don't want to as it means they are treated differently to the rest of the UK.

So shall we all stay in the customs union and solve it that way? Or hope that NI agree to be different? Or have customs posts and just hope they aren't attacked?

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:14 pm
by Stormy
Staying in the customs union negates one of the main reasons why people wanted Brexit, in the first place.

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:16 pm
by Lighthouse
So where will the customs checks take place and can you be sure of the security?

Re: A Referendum for you! Should Boris Johnson resign?

Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:46 pm
by wolf2uk
It's long past the time to play cards close. That might have been sensible at the start but it's way too late. The EU have been consistent all along. No hard border and protect their market. Light House
I am sorry, but you have obviously missed 2 to 3 yrs. We started (or we were told we started) negotiations but because as posted the previse Prime Minster, was either not interested in us leaving, or was "brushed aside" by the EU Bureaucrats, and got no where. When however Boris stated quite clearly he was prepared to leave with no deal, suddenly they woke up and realized they were dealing with an honest Politician who was there to make sure the people (majority) who voted leave got a fair hearing. What's happen now as to the EU, Panic. The Hard boarder (as I keep repeating) is being used by Southern Ireland with huge help from the EU as a weapon. It's Negotiation tactics and I am surprised others can't see that.