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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:24 pm 
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wolf2uk wrote:
Serious conflict will hit Europe in the next few years, I probably will not live to see it but it will happen. Purwell
I also share that "prophecy" I grew up just before and after the last "conflict", one would have thought "Lessens would have been learnt and minded".

Black shirts have been replaced by purple shirts and the gullible are falling for it

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Purwell wrote:
wolf2uk wrote:
Serious conflict will hit Europe in the next few years, I probably will not live to see it but it will happen. Purwell
I also share that "prophecy" I grew up just before and after the last "conflict", one would have thought "Lessens would have been learnt and minded".

Black shirts have been replaced by purple shirts and the gullible are falling for it

What ever shirts are worn, the greats fear I have is that the Far Right will gain more and more Power. There are times in the past when an organisation has used people fear to gain more support. And that is what IMHO is happening in Europe. Today it's Asylum seekers and migrants tomorrow, who knows.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:18 am 
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Or just maybe the Reds of Corbyn- loving Momentum are just as bad, or even worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:17 am 
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John o Wirral wrote:
Or just maybe the Reds of Corbyn- loving Momentum are just as bad, or even worse.

Could be right, but the "People" suffer in the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:40 pm 
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And Jeremy drops himself in the doo doo.

It appears that when (if) the Labour party ever get into power again he will listen to the people wishes regarding another referendum.

Say, Jeremy, did you miss it ? The People were asked. And the people decided to come out. (a bit like Union members do). But unlike the bloc vote of the Unions, it was one man/woman, one vote.

The People Have Spoken.

Which part of it don't you understand ?

What you really mean, Jeremy (JC : Now where have I seen those initials before) is that you will listen to your fellow Labour party members and do what you already wish to do, using them as an excuse 'the mandate of the people'.

No Jeremy, we are not interested in the game of 'keep holding referendums until we get a result we like'. The SNP wanted to try that trick. It didn't work for them either.

His Union friends must be getting a bit disillusioned by know.

Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:51 pm 
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If the Labour Conference vote to support another referendum of some kind, in some circumstances, then Corbyn will have to accept that democratic process. That's the way it works.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:02 pm 
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The other Dave. wrote:
And Jeremy drops himself in the doo doo.

It appears that when (if) the Labour party ever get into power again he will listen to the people wishes regarding another referendum.

Say, Jeremy, did you miss it ? The People were asked. And the people decided to come out. (a bit like Union members do). But unlike the bloc vote of the Unions, it was one man/woman, one vote.

The People Have Spoken.

Which part of it don't you understand ?

What you really mean, Jeremy (JC : Now where have I seen those initials before) is that you will listen to your fellow Labour party members and do what you already wish to do, using them as an excuse 'the mandate of the people'.

No Jeremy, we are not interested in the game of 'keep holding referendums until we get a result we like'. The SNP wanted to try that trick. It didn't work for them either.

His Union friends must be getting a bit disillusioned by know.

Dave.

That is all such ridiculous, ignorant twaddle. The first referendum did nothing but point to leave for remain, it said nothing about the means of leaving and, given all the lies and dark propaganda techniques used to sway the vote, I am pretty sure there were nearly as many reasons and hopes for leaving as there were people voting. We keep hearing about the need to carry out the wishes of the people, to deliver what people voted for but that is all disingenuous bo****ks. The referendum did not indicate the means of leaving, that wasn't voted for and, as it has such massive implications for everyone, a second (not infinite, that is more bo****ks) referendum makes eminent, democratic sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Quite, there was a small majority for Leave, in a referendum that was advisory not binding. The government have tried to deliver something that upholds 'Leave' with little success so far... But there was never a mandate for a specific way of leaving or for a particular trade deal, or for no deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:46 pm 
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KE,

You never actually read the posts before you fire off some rant, do you ?

The question was asked, it was answered. End of story.

If it had gone the way you wanted and people who voted to leave were complaining about the outcome you would be saying 'but there was a referendum, sorry, you lost'.

If I were to ask you 'would you like this apple ?' and you reply with 'is it from South Africa because, you know, they don't treat their workers very well there. And has it been sprayed with some organo phosphate to kill the bugs ?'

I would be tempted to say to you 'Look, do you want the bloody apple or not. It is a simple yes or no question'.

If the government had done as you appear to be suggesting they should, pass out volumes of pros and cons accompanied by reams of financial charts and predictions based on the situation in Europe at the time, very few people would have know what the hell it was all about.

We change governments with less problems than people are raising about this. And as soon as the new party gets in they go back on most of what they promised anyway.

Maybe you can get a second home in Romania or Bulgaria. No chance they will ever want to leave the EU.

Don't forget to rescind you British citizenship and hand in you passport as you leave the country.

Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Lighthouse,

...Quite, there was a small majority for Leave, in a referendum that was advisory not binding...

You are correct.

There was a small majority for leave. That's all it needed. a majority.

Go try telling the Americans there was only a small majority for Trump. There was, and we see the result. But he won.

Whatever makes you think it isn't binding ?

It's just as binding as the Scottish referendum to stay in the UK was.

Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:52 pm 
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The other Dave. wrote:
KE,

You never actually read the posts before you fire off some rant, do you ?

The question was asked, it was answered. End of story.

If it had gone the way you wanted and people who voted to leave were complaining about the outcome you would be saying 'but there was a referendum, sorry, you lost'.

If I were to ask you 'would you like this apple ?' and you reply with 'is it from South Africa because, you know, they don't treat their workers very well there. And has it been sprayed with some organo phosphate to kill the bugs ?'

I would be tempted to say to you 'Look, do you want the bloody apple or not. It is a simple yes or no question'.

If the government had done as you appear to be suggesting they should, pass out volumes of pros and cons accompanied by reams of financial charts and predictions based on the situation in Europe at the time, very few people would have know what the hell it was all about.

We change governments with less problems than people are raising about this. And as soon as the new party gets in they go back on most of what they promised anyway.

Maybe you can get a second home in Romania or Bulgaria. No chance they will ever want to leave the EU.

Don't forget to rescind you British citizenship and hand in you passport as you leave the country.

Dave.

Your fruit analogy fails. It would be better stated as:
Do you want some fruit?
What do you have?
It doesn't matter, do you want some fruit?
< the consensus is that yes, we do want some fruit>
<great confusion and disagreement ensue, as everyone wants something different>
<Leading to...>
Do you want apples, oranges, bananas or what?
And peace reigns supreme.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:55 pm 
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The other Dave. wrote:
There was a small majority for leave. That's all it needed. a majority.


No, what it needed was a more intelligent referendum that included a threshold so that 39% of the electorate didn't end up dictating to the other 61% how the country was going to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:58 pm 
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KE,

And again you prove my point.

You don't read the question.

In my analogy I ask 'do you want this apple ?'.

It is a simple yes or no question.

But you have ignored the actual question and presented an option of your own.

..Your fruit analogy fails. It would be better stated as:
Do you want some fruit?...

Whether it could be better stated is irrelevant.

I didn't ask you that.

Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Not 'end of story' Dave but the beginning. The referendum wrote the title only. Someone has to write the story and that is what the voters didn't do. They weren't asked.

Leavers can't agree. They had the chance and are close to blowing it. Still a bit of time left.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:06 pm 
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It isn't binding because the EU Referendum Act was written to make it advisory and not legally binding on the government. They can take the advice or not. No legal consequences of ignoring it, only electoral ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:06 pm 
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...Still a bit of time left..

No time left. Let's just get on with it.

And it would be political suicide to try and change things anyway. It could trigger a complete collapse of out system.

If another referendum was held on this, the Sturgeon would be (and quite rightly) jumping up and down screaming 'Where is our referendum'.

Dave.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:08 pm 
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She will want one anyway if we do leave. It changes things for Scotland as they voted to remain.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
Anya wrote:
I guess if Corbynisky ever becomes prime minister, it will be exactly what lefties deserve.


Corbyn supporters know his policies - that's why they support him.


Jew hater....

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Who is and what's your evidence for that accusation?


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:45 pm 
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Lighthouse,

...She will want one anyway if we do leave. It changes things for Scotland as they voted to remain...

I don't know the breakdown of the UK Brexit vote by country.

But it is an irrelevance.

Scotland is part of the UK. And the UK majority for those who voted was to leave.

By the way, don't you think it odd that for someone who is saying that to leave the EU is a bad thing, Suggesting that Scotland is in the right to request another referendum to leave the UK is ok ?

Dave.

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All you wanted was somebody to hold on to.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Scotland voted 62% remain, quite decisive. So you can see that Sturgeon would say that the indyref was based on the assumption that the UK was part of the EU and if we leave it would make a case for another vote. Some people might want independence now, in order to rejoin the EU.

The case for another EU referendum vote is based on several things...a campaign full of lies and lawbreaking, a narrow margin and possibly a complete failure to get a deal that gives a good outcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:11 pm 
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Orwell thought of himself as a member of the 'dissident left', as distinguished from the 'official left', meaning, basically, the British Labour Party, most of which he had come, well before the Second World War, to regard as potentially, if not already, fascist. More or less consciously, he found an analogy between British Labour and the Communist Party under Stalin - both, he felt, were movements professing to fight for the working classes against capitalism but in reality concerned only with establishing and perpetuating their own power. The masses were only there to be used - for their idealism, and to be sold out, again and again.

From:
Introduction by Thomas Pynchon to George Orwell's '1984'.

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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:44 am 
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Poor auld Corbynisky. Just refuses to do his research before spouting into the wind.

- Nationalising the railways will solve all problems -

Pity that - Railtrack - is causing MOST of those problems.

The nationalised bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:00 am 
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Railtrack is defunct, I think you mean Network Rail? That is an 'arm's length' public body (NDPB), not really what Corbyn would put in place.


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 Post subject: Re: Corbyn's Pilgrimage
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:25 am 
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Anya wrote:
Poor auld Corbynisky. Just refuses to do his research before spouting into the wind.

- Nationalising the railways will solve all problems -

Pity that - Railtrack - is causing MOST of those problems.

The nationalised bit.

Everybody's largely false memory of British Rail was engineered by the Tories by starving it of funding and investment for years before selling it off. Thus the public would welcome a change. Network Rail (Lighthouse is correct here, you are wrong) is still underfunded. The identified level of investment for the next period was not met by a large margin. NR inherited a bizarre system with modules piggybacking on older modules that are piggybacking on even older modules and so on and so on. It is a system that is guaranteed to be less than reliable and one that needs to be completely ripped out and restarted from scratch but this would be massively, prohibitively let alone operationally prohibitive. So bits are updated piecemeal, as it becomes possible or inevitable, which creates new problems as the new has to somehow mesh with the old. The multiplicity of different private companies involved with the railway, a legacy of the Tory's ludicrous privatisation model, hardly helps the matter. There is often more than one manager responsible for the same piece of work, each looking out for their own companies interests.
At least Corbyn's plan will simplify the management structure and remove waste and stupid expenses. For example, a situation I came across a few years ago in East Anglia - station lighting was contracted to a company based in Nottingham. A platform light was out so they dispatched an operative to replace the bulb, which he did on a nice Sunday, bringing his whole family, making a day of it, all on at the railway's expense. If nationalised, with in house maintenance, that would have been a quick job done in passing onto somewhere else.
Corbyn has said he will nationalise as franchises come up for renewal, avoiding having to pay compensation. I would imagine this would be sped up by enforcing the terms of the franchises which, I am sure, are currently often broken with a blind eye turned by the Department of Transport.

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