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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:06 pm 
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...Even the CIA are not that bad!...


Here we go again.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/can- ... -that-bad/

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:43 pm 
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Breaking news is that 4 Russians again from the GRU have been caught red handed attempting to infiltrate the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons in The Hague .

The OPCW had been probing the Salisbury chemical attack carried out by Russians.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:24 pm 
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They've been caught with their pants down due to a brilliant co-ordinated joint operation, between the British and the Dutch - and STILL the Kremlin denies it!

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Stormy wrote:
They've been caught with their pants down due to a brilliant co-ordinated joint operation, between the British and the Dutch - and STILL the Kremlin denies it!



Of course they deny it. No way they could admit it.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:14 am 
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John o Wirral wrote:
Stormy wrote:
They've been caught with their pants down due to a brilliant co-ordinated joint operation, between the British and the Dutch - and STILL the Kremlin denies it!



Of course they deny it. No way they could admit it.

Still no proof though is there?

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:12 am 
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Evidence?
There is plenty in a car's boot.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:12 am 
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Stormy wrote:
They've been caught with their pants down due to a brilliant co-ordinated joint operation, between the British and the Dutch - and STILL the Kremlin denies it!

We would too.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:16 am 
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What more proof is needed? The evidence is mounting every day, especially with highly decorated Colonel Chepiga of the GRU being proved to be one of the Salisbury pair - who left novichoc footprints all over the place, including their cheap London hotel. These other four were nabbed in the act, at The Hague. Do you seriously imagine, that they would be found not guilty, if all this evidence was presented to a court in a NATO country? Preferably Britain, in the case of the two poisoners of the Skripals.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:26 am 
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Purwell wrote:
John o Wirral wrote:
Stormy wrote:
They've been caught with their pants down due to a brilliant co-ordinated joint operation, between the British and the Dutch - and STILL the Kremlin denies it!



Of course they deny it. No way they could admit it.

Still no proof though is there?


What for you, would constitute "proof".

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" is the normal legal criteria, Both Salisbury and the Hague achieve that requirement.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:59 am 
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gazman wrote:
Evidence?
There is plenty in a car's boot.


Evidence of a determined and professional state sponsored hacking attempt, not a nerve agent attack.

There are still no forensics.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:21 am 
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Beyond a reasonable doubt"

Exactly so.

The very fact that this debate is going on shows there is "reasonable doubt".

I cannot be the only one who finds the evidence wanting. I am not even the only one on this forum!

It would not be hard for a decent defence lawyer to ensure that any impanelled jury has at least half its number composed of people like me.

Forget the hype, the passion, the indignation, let's step back and study the "evidence".

Beyond reasonable doubt?

A long way off that.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:53 am 
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It's the quickness of the 'and deceives the eye.
Smoke and mirrors fool Joe Public all the while.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:52 pm 
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gazman wrote:
Stormy wrote:
They've been caught with their pants down due to a brilliant co-ordinated joint operation, between the British and the Dutch - and STILL the Kremlin denies it!

We would too.

No doubt we would - in an operation such as this. But surely even worse is the assassination and attempted assassination of their own citizens i.e. Litvinenko and the Skripals, on British soil. Now there are those that argue that we should have done exactly the same in the cases of Burgess, McClean and Philby - but we didn't. In fact the only assassination that I can think of, for which we were responsible, was that of Reinhard Heydrich, in Prague. This led to the village of Lidice being wiped off the map and the deaths and incarceration in concentration camps of thousands of innocents - not a good idea at all!

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:55 pm 
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I note those who think there is not enough evidence to take to court, are reluctant to say what else would satisfy them.

In the real world , UK prosecutors are more than happy to proceed, as indeed their Dutch counterparts would be if they decided there was any merit to be gained from involving the courts.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:25 pm 
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I note those who think there is not enough evidence to take to court, are reluctant to say what else would satisfy them.

Can't speak for others, but I'm N
not reluctant at all. I have always said I would like to see some forensics.

By their I mean direct links.

Fingerprints, DNA, fibres, properly surveillance footage, like the Dutch produced, not grainy b&w grainy traffic (including pedestrian traffic) cctv, contamination (two guys as allegedly clumsy as this would have found it difficult to contaminate so much stuff but not themselves).

A half decent QC could probably convince a judge there was no case to answer, long before it ever got to a jury. In fact, he/she could provably argue for a non-jury trial on the grounds of bias due to widespread publicity.

In the real world we all know that Russia did it, but that innocent until proved otherwise is still paramount, whether a sovereign state or a rough sleeping shoplifter.


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