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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Stormy wrote:
Putin is now saying that they have identified the guys. Civilians! i.e. not state sponsored - so we didn't do it Guv!
This was of course entirely predictable. Two guys sentenced to thirty years in a gulag, they've been there a year and just want to die. When they are given an opportunity! Do this and don't get detected and you can come back home and resume your normal life. Mind, tovarich, there is some risk. The Brit MI5 is inferior to our brilliant FSB - but they are still pretty good. So if the Brits uncover your tracks, we'll have to send you to face their justice. Worst case scenario, 20 years in a Brit prison, out in 10. While in there, you'll have an in cell TV, games console, as much cannabis, cocaine and spice as you can possibly want - and our outside operatives will supply you with steak, vodka and anything else you might require. It's really a bit like a holiday camp. So what have you got to lose?

You are just making it up as you go along aren't you? You know no more than any of us but you are trying to convince people that you do, that is all pure conjecture and you know it.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:00 am 
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I see. We are not allowed to speculate on what might have happened? What would NOT surprise me, is if the real truth ever does come out, it might be even worse than I imagined it might be. Why do I think this? Because the Russian state is a past master when it comes to mendacity. In the past they have quite successfully convinced the world that they were innocent of actions that make this particular one, pale into insignificance. For example - the murders of 22,000 Polish soldiers and intelligentsia, during the Katyn Forest massacre. They blamed it on the Nazis during 1941 - but it was actually carried out by their NKVD in 1940. There's just been a film released about it, where in 1947, a British journalist attempts to reveal the real truth. It's called The Last Witness. Any doubts were finally put to rest, when Gorbachev, being true to glasnost, admitted the truth to the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:09 am 
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Stormy wrote:
Putin is now saying that they have identified the guys. Civilians! i.e. not state sponsored - so we didn't do it Guv!
This was of course entirely predictable. Two guys sentenced to thirty years in a gulag, they've been there a year and just want to die. When they are given an opportunity! Do this and don't get detected and you can come back home and resume your normal life. Mind, tovarich, there is some risk. The Brit MI5 is inferior to our brilliant FSB - but they are still pretty good. So if the Brits uncover your tracks, we'll have to send you to face their justice. Worst case scenario, 20 years in a Brit prison, out in 10. While in there, you'll have an in cell TV, games console, as much cannabis, cocaine and spice as you can possibly want - and our outside operatives will supply you with steak, vodka and anything else you might require. It's really a bit like a holiday camp. So what have you got to lose?


Any Russian blood in you, Stormy?

Your conspiracies theories would do credit to the old Poltburo (or even the quiescent White House!).


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:45 am 
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Sorry Laurie. Scottish on both paternal and maternal lines together with a fair dash of Border Reiver. I've got back as far as 1728 but beyond that, no doubt a sprinkling of Scandinavian.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Hilarious interview with the two Russians on TV. Every thing they said simply confirmed their guilt. A quite incredible display of ineptitude..

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Downlander wrote:
Hilarious interview with the two Russians on TV. Every thing they said simply confirmed their guilt. A quite incredible display of ineptitude..



Rubbish. They were innocent tourists just as I was im Ulster in the 70s!


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:49 am 
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Funny how they could not recollect ONE single detail of the cathedral that had been the ONLY reason for their trip.

Funny, not ONE single CT image of them - in - or anywhere near the cathedral.

Funny how, in a totally unfamiliar place, and just a few hours, they walked right up to the Skripal home - by pure accident.

Funny that traces of Novichock were found in the hotel room where they stayed.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Russia is a lying cheating country and always has been. Since 2015 their athletes have been banned from international competitions for state sponsored use of performance enhancing drugs.

Only this week one of our female athletes received silver and bronze medals awarded retrospectively, following the medals being withdrawn from Russian athletes, who it has been proved, several years ago used drugs to enhance their performance in the Olympics.. All state sponsored.

Go back in time, everyone recalls the state sponsored success of Russia and it's satellite East Germany, picking up medals galore after vast use of organised drug programs . Russia is totally corrupt, I am amazed that anyone could doubt their involvement in Salisbury.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:52 pm 
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Stay amazed then.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:35 pm 
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Downlander wrote:
Russia is a lying cheating country and always has been. Since 2015 their athletes have been banned from international competitions for state sponsored use of performance enhancing drugs.

Only this week one of our female athletes received silver and bronze medals awarded retrospectively, following the medals being withdrawn from Russian athletes, who it has been proved, several years ago used drugs to enhance their performance in the Olympics.. All state sponsored.

Go back in time, everyone recalls the state sponsored success of Russia and it's satellite East Germany, picking up medals galore after vast use of organised drug programs . Russia is totally corrupt, I am amazed that anyone could doubt their involvement in Salisbury.


You post this as though you are announcing something new.

Russia has been like this since at least the 16th century, as any historian will tell you.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:04 pm 
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laurie 53 wrote:
Downlander wrote:
Russia is a lying cheating country and always has been. Since 2015 their athletes have been banned from international competitions for state sponsored use of performance enhancing drugs.

Only this week one of our female athletes received silver and bronze medals awarded retrospectively, following the medals being withdrawn from Russian athletes, who it has been proved, several years ago used drugs to enhance their performance in the Olympics.. All state sponsored.

Go back in time, everyone recalls the state sponsored success of Russia and it's satellite East Germany, picking up medals galore after vast use of organised drug programs . Russia is totally corrupt, I am amazed that anyone could doubt their involvement in Salisbury.


You post this as though you are announcing something new.

Russia has been like this since at least the 16th century, as any historian will tell you.


Nothing new ! as I clearly stated this type of thing has always been Russia's modus operandi. Just trying to open the eyes of those who will not see.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Yes. It would seem that some here actually believe that they are innocent! So if there are any such on here, that believe they are blameless, please offer up any evidence that you may have, in support of such a claim. In order that we can dispute it, with the evidence that we have to the contrary. Should be an interesting excercise!

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:25 am 
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Just trying to open the eyes of those who will not see.


None so blind as they!


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:47 am 
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Stormy wrote:
...believe they are blameless...


It's not about belief. They are guilty if and when there is at the very least proof of guilt beyond reasonable doubt, based on the full range of evidence. Evidence that we will never be privy to and some evidence that can never now be obtained. All the info. I have is whatever circumstantial evidence the government have seen fit to brief to the press and the latter's fevered speculation.

So I 'believe' nothing, simply keep an open mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Only the 'left' eye, I take it?
:smiles:


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:11 am 
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The media today is full of the latest revelations concerning the Russian assassins . Seems one of them has been identified as a decorated Russian colonel, confirming the involvement of the Russian state and Putins lies.

This simply confirms what the realists amongst us have always believed. It remains to be seen what action the international community will now take to censure Russia's criminal actions,

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:41 am 
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Downlander wrote:
The media today is full of the latest revelations concerning the Russian assassins . Seems one of them has been identified as a decorated Russian colonel, confirming the involvement of the Russian state and Putins lies.

This simply confirms what the realists amongst us have always believed. It remains to be seen what action the international community will now take to censure Russia's criminal actions,

Doesn't confirm anything really does it?

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:59 am 
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Purwell wrote:
Doesn't confirm anything really does it?


Senior Russian military officer pops into Salisbury of all places ! for a couple of hours, leaving ex Russian spy contaminated with nerve agent. He then catches next plane back to Russia. I suspect there is enough in this story to have him convicted in any reputable court. So yes, there is confirmation of guilt .

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:39 am 
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It's still all circumstantial isn't i?

As any probationer policeman will tell you, there's not enough there to stand up in a British court, particularly not the Court of Appeal, where law, not emotion, is the criterion.

Difficult to know what the international community will, or can do.

Trump has more pressing problems, and nonebof them will act without him.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:45 am 
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We shall have to agree to disagree, I and many others believe there is more than enough evidence to convict these men beyond reasonable doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:21 pm 
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Normally the jury decide on guilt after sitting through days (at least) of evidence from both the prosecution and defence. They do not decide before the trial starts based on press speculation.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
Normally the jury decide on guilt after sitting through days (at least) of evidence from both the prosecution and defence. They do not decide before the trial starts based on press speculation.


Oh thank you so much for explaining how things work. I'm sure the rest of us were thinking that people discuss such matters as they develop in the media, and in this case I feel confident we are not far from the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:22 pm 
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Downlander wrote:
We shall have to agree to disagree, I and many others believe there is more than enough evidence to convict these men beyond reasonable doubt.


I have always admitted the possibility that a jury would convict.

I have also always said, and still do on the "evidence" we know of so far, that such a conviction would be overturned on appeal.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:28 pm 
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laurie 53 wrote:
Downlander wrote:
We shall have to agree to disagree, I and many others believe there is more than enough evidence to convict these men beyond reasonable doubt.


I have always admitted the possibility that a jury would convict.

I have also always said, and still do on the "evidence" we know of so far, that such a conviction would be overturned on appeal.


I think you are wrong, short of having a photo of them spraying the door handle with Novichok, the evidence could not be stronger, and that is why arrest warrants have been issued.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:45 am 
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the evidence could not be stronger,

What evidence?

Traces of (a very old fashioned)nerve agent in a hotel room, which however unlikely, could have come from anyone, and some travel arrangements which, however unlikely, could have been innocent.

No forensics at all.

The two suspects are highly trained, very experienced undercover special forces operatives. Can you see, for instance, our own SAS carrying out such an amateur, bungled operation, and then letting themselves be identified? Even the CIA are not that bad!

I have no doubt the Russians targeted a traitor, just as we, I repeat, should have done with Philby & Co., but all the brou ha ha since has been entirely political.

The Russians have bee doing this sort of thing for 500 years, and there is a purpose behind everything theylve allowed to be "uncovered".


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