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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Downlander wrote:
laurie 53 wrote:

Do you think it a coincidence that this announcement was made just when an acrimonious Brexit debate was restarting?

.


I do not believe there is any connection between Brexit and the release of news relating to the Novichok attack.

I do however worry about people who think there is.


Thank you for your concern; it is much appreciated. However, we each have our opinions.

I regard coincidences in diplomacy and politics the same way as a policeman regards them in a murder investigation - with reserve!

There are large numbers of SPADS working full time to engineer such "coincidences". Remember "This is a good day to bury bad news".


[b]Skirpal is entitled to be safe from the Russian state,


He is a traitor to his country and is entitled to whatever they offer him. Retribution at this remove will "" encourager les autres' and steady the waverers, and Russia has been engaged in such activities, on foreign soil, since at least the 17th century, and is why My Pitt had nearly as many agents in Russia as Napoleon had in the UK! Although this appears to have bee a very messy operation (compare with the neatens and efficiency of the umbrella attack) it was, in fact, a meticulously well planned and executed operation; even to the extent of leaving the part used bottle behind to be discovered, and allowing the perpetrators to be identified. Does anybody really belie that two well trained and experienced secret service agents, from a service older than our own, would be so incompetent?

Make no mistake, this is playing out exactly as the Russians intend it to, for reasons of their own.

If you want to deal with the Russians look at your own history. That's why the Americans are so bad at it. The Russians are ruled by the knout and only understand one diplomatic nicety - the iron fist in the chainmail glove.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:13 pm 
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Purwell wrote:
Stormy wrote:
king edward wrote:
The problem some people (including me) have is that we are not privy to the evidence and so we have to take the news on trust. On trust from the most dishonest, shambolic, incompetent government in modern British history.

Well, it still has some way to go, before it matches the records of previous labour maladministrations. Unfortunately the Tory party has been infiltrated by lefties. Why else do we have such shocking things as the state of our prisons, the running down of our police force - sorry service - you're not allowed to call it a force any more! Military budgets slashed - while we hand out an obscene amount in foreign aid, much of which goes into the pockets of corrupt officials in the target countries. The huge white elephant of HS2. Unrestricted immigration and last but not least a pusillanimous failure to implement the democratic decision of our citizens over Brexit. Of course, that's not over until the fat lady sings but it's not looking too promising at the moment! More than two years have past and we've got almost nowhere. Politicians of all colours have lost the will to act decisively to confront the numerous elephants that are currently in our room.


You would much prefer a government containing fascists then?

I will treat that utterly ludicrous and offensive remark, with the contempt that it so richly deserves.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:40 pm 
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So who do you think whodunnit, KC?


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:28 am 
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Those terrible Tories, of course !!
:smiles:


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:27 am 
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tuesdays child wrote:
So who do you think whodunnit, KC?


Thinking somebody gig it and proving they did it are two very different things, as any copper will tell you.

No-one has yet produced one shred of hard evidence against Russia.

Saying someone is guilty because there's nobody else is not proof!


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:31 am 
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Laurie - Have you not been following the way the two Ruskies were filmed, flying into the UK, going to Salisbury, right to the house of the victims and flying back to Russia? With traces of Novichok, all the way.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:15 pm 
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Anya wrote:
Laurie - Have you not been following the way the two Ruskies were filmed, flying into the UK, going to Salisbury, right to the house of the victims and flying back to Russia? With traces of Novichok, all the way.

Along with a brass band playing "Believe It If You Like"?

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Those two men must have been fair sprinkled with the stuff as they strolled around the shops looking so healthy and relaxed.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:38 pm 
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Smoke and mirrors, but people will still believe the bullshit and carry on voting Tory!

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Anya wrote:
Laurie - Have you not been following the way the two Ruskies were filmed, flying into the UK, going to Salisbury, right to the house of the victims and flying back to Russia? With traces of Novichok, all the way.


This is, at worst, circumstantial, and if you managed to get a concoction in a British court, which I beg leave to doubt (you would only need a couple like me on the jury) it would be overturned on appeal.

There were no traces of the agent found outside Wiltshire.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:55 pm 
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It was detected in the hotel where they stayed at, in London.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Purwell wrote:
Smoke and mirrors, but people will still believe the bullshit and carry on voting Tory!

The only reason that people will vote Tory, has got nothing to do with the fact that they have been much less than successful as a government should be, in pretty key areas, indeed even abysmal in some - but by the fact that anybody who has read history, fully realises that the present opposition will be incredibly worse, should the unthinkable happen - and they actually get the keys to number 10. If this happens, I predict that they will not survive more than one term in office - and whoever follows (maybe not even the Tory Party!) will have a huge job on their hands to undo the damage that they have done - if indeed it is actually redeemable.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Stormy wrote:
Purwell wrote:
Smoke and mirrors, but people will still believe the bullshit and carry on voting Tory!

The only reason that people will vote Tory, has got nothing to do with the fact that they have been much less than successful as a government should be, in pretty key areas, indeed even abysmal in some - but by the fact that anybody who has read history, fully realises that the present opposition will be incredibly worse, should the unthinkable happen - and they actually get the keys to number 10. If this happens, I predict that they will not survive more than one term in office - and whoever follows (maybe not even the Tory Party!) will have a huge job on their hands to undo the damage that they have done - if indeed it is actually redeemable.

Not in my opinion.
Tory governments have never done anything for the ordinary people, they have always pandered to the rich and privileged.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:13 am 
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Stormy wrote:
It was detected in the hotel where they stayed at, in London.


My mistake.

Sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:29 am 
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Purwell wrote:
Stormy wrote:
Purwell wrote:
Smoke and mirrors, but people will still believe the bullshit and carry on voting Tory!

The only reason that people will vote Tory, has got nothing to do with the fact that they have been much less than successful as a government should be, in pretty key areas, indeed even abysmal in some - but by the fact that anybody who has read history, fully realises that the present opposition will be incredibly worse, should the unthinkable happen - and they actually get the keys to number 10. If this happens, I predict that they will not survive more than one term in office - and whoever follows (maybe not even the Tory Party!) will have a huge job on their hands to undo the damage that they have done - if indeed it is actually redeemable.

Not in my opinion.
Tory governments have never done anything for the ordinary people, they have always pandered to the rich and privileged.

Well, you have a point about the ordinary people! It's the ordinary people who decide whose going to be in Parliament, they do this, every five years, in a General Election. You have two types of voters. Those who would only vote either Tory or Labour, irrespective of what was in the manifesto, the party faithful. However, in much larger numbers, are the floating voters. It is they who decide which party best represents their interests - and they vote accordingly. Now if these people really believed that the Tories only cared about the rich, why is it that in the latter half of the 20th century, the Tories were voted in for 65% of the time, between 1945 and 2000?
Then we had Denis Healey - who taxed the rich until the pips squeaked. Where did that get us? Cap in hand to the IMF, that's where! Galloping inflation. He killed the goose that laid the golden egg. The reason that people are rich, is often because they run very successful businesses, they are the entrepreneurs that provide employment for the many. Drive these away and the results are catastrophic. Governments need to get the balance right.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:55 am 
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Stormy wrote:
Purwell wrote:
Stormy wrote:
Purwell wrote:
Smoke and mirrors, but people will still believe the bullshit and carry on voting Tory!

The only reason that people will vote Tory, has got nothing to do with the fact that they have been much less than successful as a government should be, in pretty key areas, indeed even abysmal in some - but by the fact that anybody who has read history, fully realises that the present opposition will be incredibly worse, should the unthinkable happen - and they actually get the keys to number 10. If this happens, I predict that they will not survive more than one term in office - and whoever follows (maybe not even the Tory Party!) will have a huge job on their hands to undo the damage that they have done - if indeed it is actually redeemable.

Not in my opinion.
Tory governments have never done anything for the ordinary people, they have always pandered to the rich and privileged.

Well, you have a point about the ordinary people! It's the ordinary people who decide whose going to be in Parliament, they do this, every five years, in a General Election. You have two types of voters. Those who would only vote either Tory or Labour, irrespective of what was in the manifesto, the party faithful. However, in much larger numbers, are the floating voters. It is they who decide which party best represents their interests - and they vote accordingly. Now if these people really believed that the Tories only cared about the rich, why is it that in the latter half of the 20th century, the Tories were voted in for 65% of the time, between 1945 and 2000?
Then we had Denis Healey - who taxed the rich until the pips squeaked. Where did that get us? Cap in hand to the IMF, that's where! Galloping inflation. He killed the goose that laid the golden egg. The reason that people are rich, is often because they run very successful businesses, they are the entrepreneurs that provide employment for the many. Drive these away and the results are catastrophic. Governments need to get the balance right.


That only applies in England.

Since England has more voters than all the rest of the UK put together the only floating voters that matter are English ones.

That's democracy.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:36 pm 
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How would the miserable and utterly criminal Novichok assault influence anyone to vote, one way or t'other?

Surely, Labour (so called) should condemn the crime, just as much as everybody else?

And if the Ruskies did not do it, pray tell us, who did?


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:01 pm 
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Six months - yes six months - of concentrated efforts by our police and security services, involving the perusal of thousands of hours of CCTV footage, the taking and analysis of samples at numerous locations, seperated by many miles - and goodness knows what else - has provided evidence against two Russian individuals. Considering the strength of this evidence, if we were able to get these guys into a British court, to get a fair trial, what do you think the verdict would be?

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:24 pm 
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has provided evidence against two Russian individuals. Considering the strength of this evidence, if we were able to get these guys into a British court, to get a fair trial, what do you think the verdict would be?

What evidence? I mean real hard forensic evidence, not the circumstantial evidence so far provided by the enquiries you describe?

Even if these two were ever convicted, the evidence is too weak to hold up in the Appeal Court.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:58 pm 
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Really? http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-may ... ing-2018-3
Of course, if you're right, I reckon the Kremlin will be absolutely busting to get these two in front of a British court, so that they can prove their innocence!

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:13 am 
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Stormy wrote:
Really? http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-may ... ing-2018-3
Of course, if you're right, I reckon the Kremlin will be absolutely busting to get these two in front of a British court, so that they can prove their innocence!

Nobody has to prove their innocence.

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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:40 am 
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So, who dunnit?


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:28 am 
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If he was a double agent I expect there's a wide field.


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:30 pm 
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Anya wrote:
So, who dunnit?


I think there's little doubt the Russians did it, and that Vlad had an input.

Unfortunately there is also little proof that they did it!


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 Post subject: Re: Novichoc
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:45 pm 
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Putin is now saying that they have identified the guys. Civilians! i.e. not state sponsored - so we didn't do it Guv!
This was of course entirely predictable. Two guys sentenced to thirty years in a gulag, they've been there a year and just want to die. When they are given an opportunity! Do this and don't get detected and you can come back home and resume your normal life. Mind, tovarich, there is some risk. The Brit MI5 is inferior to our brilliant FSB - but they are still pretty good. So if the Brits uncover your tracks, we'll have to send you to face their justice. Worst case scenario, 20 years in a Brit prison, out in 10. While in there, you'll have an in cell TV, games console, as much cannabis, cocaine and spice as you can possibly want - and our outside operatives will supply you with steak, vodka and anything else you might require. It's really a bit like a holiday camp. So what have you got to lose?

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