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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
That article doesn't say that the Euro caused all Greece's economic woes.

It's criticising the measures put in place to alleviate the debt over several years. Do you agree that banks with exposure to this debt should have just written it off instead? There were/are British banks who had loans to Greece... that would have had a knock-on effect on us the customers, are you prepared for that to happen.

Do you agree that we should give them back the Elgin marbles as a helpful offering.

What I fail to see, is those that have such (dare I say) a blind belief that the EU will "last". It's not just Greece or Italy , it's a grow number of counties that are finding that "Blind belief" that the Bureaucrats in Brussels do not now know, what they are doing! What will it take to make people wake up and realise that in Germany of all the counties in the EU, have now,
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cktake-q-a

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:16 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
That article doesn't say that the Euro caused all Greece's economic woes.

It's criticising the measures put in place to alleviate the debt over several years. Do you agree that banks with exposure to this debt should have just written it off instead? There were/are British banks who had loans to Greece... that would have had a knock-on effect on us the customers, are you prepared for that to happen.

Do you agree that we should give them back the Elgin marbles as a helpful offering.


I am a regular visitor to Greece. I have friends there in the local and expat communities. I follow happenings in Greece closely through a variety of sources.

For many years there was little control on tax payments in Greece and corruption was rife.
There was "creative accounting" either eligibility criteria for EU membership, and even more so when it applied to join the Euro group. There is better control of taxes now, but still a long way to go.
The main banks involved in lending to Greece were those of France, Germany and Italy. The moves made by the Triumvirate were the protect broadBand and the Euro, not to help Greece. The three phases of loans to Greece were to pay off the bailout loans not to help Greece.

Giving them back the Elgin Marbles would just be a feel good factor but would be of minimal benefit to their economy unless there was a big investment to house them and so boost tourism

A far better boost for their economy would be to pressure Germany in paying the reparations for World War Two, independently calculated as being 200 bn €.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:17 am 
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A far better boost for their economy would be to pressure Germany in paying the reparations for World War Two, independently calculated as being 200 bn €.John o Wirral
And that is a very important factor. Not only for Greece, but what about the estimated 120 billion Dollars that the UK had to pay which took 61 years to repay by us. Germany is a very important factor in the EU and is the biggest economy in the failing EU, but also will be the biggest loser when we finally "escape".
The European Union could have worked if it had changed as the Union developed. Allowing "Free passage" for all Citizens regardless of whether "workers or spongers" was a very big mistake.
Denmark has a system that with modifications could have worked well.
http://um.dk/en/travel-and-residence/danish-visa-rules/

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:22 am 
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Well, Tsipras did try to pressurise for reparations I think, but wasn't there some legal agreement years ago that was signed, about Germany having paid a full and final settlement? It was only a part of what was wanted but Greece did agree as I recall.

Reparations are tricky - if Germany had to pay more would Turkey start pressurising Greece for the war in 1919? Would we then be under much more pressure to give back the marbles? To pay reparations for slavery and so on...It opens a big can.

Anyway, Germany would probably argue that they are giving a lot to Greece in the form of loans at preferential interest rates and EU contributions. And that they can't throw money at a country that won't change the policies that led to the problems. Hence the austerity/tax reform requirements and so on.

But I do think that the terms have been harsh and perhaps could have been gentler...but they would have to go on for longer I guess. Banks writing off debt is possible - but that has knock-on effects in the economies of the other countries. It's not an easy situation to fix.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:25 am 
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Isn't the Danish system pretty much the same as applies to all EU countries, including us although we choose to ignore it?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:26 am 
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wolf2uk wrote:
Germany is a very important factor in the EU and is the biggest economy in the failing EU, but also will be the biggest loser when we finally "escape".
The European Union could have worked if it had changed as the Union developed. Allowing "Free passage" for all Citizens regardless of whether "workers or spongers" was a very big mistake.
Denmark has a system that with modifications could have worked well.
http://um.dk/en/travel-and-residence/danish-visa-rules/


Oddy enough in Frankfurt they are already benefiting from the Brexit vote and think they will do so a lot more soon. So people who go there on financial business tell me.

The EU does not allow free movement for spongers. Denmark is in the EU.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:32 am 
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king edward wrote:
Isn't the Danish system pretty much the same as applies to all EU countries, including us although we choose to ignore it?


We can apply the same EU rules as Denmark.

They are in the Schengen Zone though, so non-EU visitors need a Schengen Visa, which they get when they enter the Zone at any point.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:52 am 
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The EU does not allow free movement for spongers. Denmark is in the EU. Lighthouse

I am sorry, do you have facts and information that states "no one can arrive from the EU into the UK who has not got a job, will not bring dependants and will not claim Social benefits or Free education for their children"?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:59 am 
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The U.K. could register people from the EU on entry to the UK and there is no compulsion at all to pay benefits to people who don't find work. I'm sure this has been discussed before. It's work or support yourself.

Workers get more rights, just as UK workers in other EU countries do.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:47 am 
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Saying that something is not true does not stop it being the reality.

Read local reports from Italy, Greece, Spain ... and many other parts of Europe, where youth unemployment is even higher than sixty percent. Parents are desperate, seeing their children drift, with no job and no training, year after year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266 ... countries/


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
The U.K. could register people from the EU on entry to the UK and there is no compulsion at all to pay benefits to people who don't find work. I'm sure this has been discussed before. It's work or support yourself.

Workers get more rights, just as UK workers in other EU countries do.

So, just to clarify (my interest) no one from the EU can claim benefits (of any kind)including free Health service or Social benefits including free school places plus housing by local councils, if we say no or unless they are working? And if so how is dependents of those living here can claim such benefits while still living in the country of origin.
May be the following does clarify, still quite a lot paid to people who on until entering the UK but have not paid a "Penny" in Taxes up till they arrive.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5776790/e ... in-a-year/

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:35 pm 
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EU migrants have the right to come and look for work in the UK and we have a reciprocal right.
For the first three months there is no compulsion to pay any benefits, so they must support themselves.

After that, if people are still not working there is also no compulsion. Any EU migrant can also be registered - but the government has never done so. If they have found work they are treated as any worker from the UK - so they may qualify for benefits at that point, for example housing benefit.

Directive 2004/38/EC introduces EU citizenship as the basic status for nationals of the Member States when they exercise their right to move and reside freely in EU territory. For the first three months, every EU citizen has the right to reside in the territory of another EU country with no conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport. For longer periods, the host Member State may require a citizen to register his or her presence within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

Migrant workers’ right to reside for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions, which vary depending on the citizen’s status: for EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance.


The rights come with the employment. No requirement to pay anything if the person hasn't found work. After three months they could be asked to return, if they haven't found a job. Not that we tend to do that but under EU rules we could. We could also register people under the rules. Paying child benefit to worker's children who reside abroad is also a choice the UK made. It is not an EU rule.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Taxes will have to rise if Brexit brings strict curbs on EU workers because they pay far more to the public purse than British-born residents, a study warns today.

Migrants from the EU contribute £2,300 more to the exchequer each year in net terms than the average adult, the analysis for the government has found.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/eu-migrant-workers-contribute-%C2%A32300-more-per-year-to-uk-than-average-british-citizen-study-reveals/ar-BBNuuid


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Anya wrote:
Saying that something is not true does not stop it being the reality.

Read local reports from Italy, Greece, Spain ... and many other parts of Europe, where youth unemployment is even higher than sixty percent. Parents are desperate, seeing their children drift, with no job and no training, year after year.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266 ... countries/


You might find some pockets where it's that high but overall it isn't. Your own link shows that. EU average 15.1%. No country nearing 60%.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
Taxes will have to rise if Brexit brings strict curbs on EU workers because they pay far more to the public purse than British-born residents, a study warns today.

Migrants from the EU contribute £2,300 more to the exchequer each year in net terms than the average adult, the analysis for the government has found.


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/eu-migrant-workers-contribute-%C2%A32300-more-per-year-to-uk-than-average-british-citizen-study-reveals/ar-BBNuuid

And it is with "conflicting reports" we see why this Free access to Benefits and those that want to remain in the EU has become a clash of miss-information as to who is right and who is wrong. The facts do speak for themselves. As an example we do have EU residents here who do claim for dependents who live else where. But the article I posted says clearly that EU dependents from Eastern European areas claim disproportionally more then a UK citizen.
Quote:
EU citizens with jobs have similar access to the benefits as UK citizens. ... An EEA citizen who moves to the UK and is determined to be a "worker" is immediately eligible for in-work benefits like tax credits and housing benefit. However, their work must be considered "genuine and effective".
And that means what ever wage they receive.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:22 pm 
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EU migrants pay more in than British people, on average. That doesn't mean every single one of them, it's across the board. Some EU workers earn loads, pay a lot of tax and don't claim a bean.

EU citizens have the right to work or be self-supporting, not to come and claim without working.

I have given you the facts - the relevant part of the EU Directive. If the government chooses not to apply the rules that it could, that's their choice.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
EU migrants pay more in than British people, on average. That doesn't mean every single one of them, it's across the board. Some EU workers earn loads, pay a lot of tax and don't claim a bean.

EU citizens have the right to work or be self-supporting, not to come and claim without working.

I have given you the facts - the relevant part of the EU Directive. If the government chooses not to apply the rules that it could, that's their choice.

Sorry but no you have given your view based on information you have "retrieved". We can go on and on quoting so called facts but the last quote I gave did come from a facts based Net answer which was when quoted stated that EU citizens living in the UK are receiving :-MIGRANTS BENEFITS BILL EU migrants in Britain claimed more than £4bn a year in benefits. Are you disputing that? The real question is are they as a whole paying more into the UK Budget, then taking out.
An interesting comparison as to who pays and who receives as to the EU.

https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/EU_b ... utions.png

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:02 pm 
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I am quoting facts.

EU rules allow working migrants to claim benefits (if eligible) but not for migrants to come and sponge, as you put it. I have quoted the actual rule.

So some working migrants do claim. Many earn too much to be eligible of course.

Overall, EU migrants pay more in to the UK pot than the average UK person. The Sun has just focused on Eastern Europeans (it skews the picture), but the study I linked to looked at everyone from all EU countries. The study was commissioned very recently by the government Migratory Advisory Committee, to provide data for Brexit planning.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:30 pm 
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I am quoting facts.

Quote:
EU rules allow working migrants to claim benefits (if eligible) but not for migrants to come and sponge, as you put it. I have quoted the actual rule. Light House
In theory yes, but having had some limited experience of "Claimants" and how they can "deceive, I would question that. The real problem as so many programs have showed, there is tendency by Migrants to give facts that are not always checked. I am also aware that we have native born who do the same but there is one other problem, the Language barrier. But again who is going to check those so called dependants who are we are told living in the claimants Native Land?
I am certainly not stating that all EU migrants are on the "Take", but when we also see statements from Politicians questioning the rise in crime in for example in London and the so called "Eastern European suspects", then I think we have to look at the whole picture, which is simply, should we not insist that those wishing to settle here are "Vetted" thoroughly before being allowed to settle. In truth we simply don't have the man power to question and check.
Again I repeat if the EU had advanced and grown in time and if countries which has been shown were not ready for entrance had not been allowed in until they reached a level and where "People had been involved and been given a voting right as to how the EU was running (and please forget the 700 so called MEP's who are a expensive burden), then small wonder as we are seeing Europe facing a rising growth of the Far Right. Which (as I suggested the Swedish Election) is where we will see changes. The next German nation election, (next year) at this time the AFD have, quote :-
Quote:
Alternative for Germany emerged as the third-strongest political force in the country’s national election in September.
. The AFD had no elected member 6 years ago, and next year there will I have no doubt be a an increase which will form if not the major party in the German Parliament, certainly a very important factor for the future. The Present Chancellor is on her last legs, so will we see a German Parliament also to start to question of the power of the Brussels Bureaucrats? Not the concept of a United Europe that is the question, but it's who runs it?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Lighthouse,

...EU rules allow working migrants to claim benefits (if eligible) but not for migrants to come and sponge, as you put it. I have quoted the actual rule...

So when we are out, all that will stop ?

All work in the UK will be given to UK citizens first, then, if no UK citizen can fill the job it may be offered to a non UK citizen on production of the appropriate qualifications and work permit; which will be time-limited.

Dave.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:43 am 
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We don't know what the post-Brexit immigration policy will be. It's one of the things still not set.

Likely that nothing will change until the end of the transition period (December 2020 maybe) and the policy will be worked out in fine detail during that period.

May is saying that EU free movement as we know it will end, as she intends to leave the single market and not have a Norway-style EU deal. She seems to favour the same rules for migrant workers from any country. But those rules haven't been laid out. Whether it will lead to any reduction in overall numbers remains to be seen. They will not want to leave vacancies unfilled but some of the rules of employment could change.

Of course any future government could change them again.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:54 am 
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wolf2uk wrote:
But again who is going to check those so called dependants who are we are told living in the claimants Native Land?....
I am certainly not stating that all EU migrants are on the "Take", but when we also see statements from Politicians questioning the rise in crime in for example in London and the so called "Eastern European suspects", then I think we have to look at the whole picture, which is simply, should we not insist that those wishing to settle here are "Vetted" thoroughly before being allowed to settle. In truth we simply don't have the man power to question and check.


It's up to the government to provide funding for enough staff to check documents, criminal databases and so on.

But if we don't have the staff now, why does anyone assume we will have them after Brexit. There seems to be this assumption a lot more money will be going in, but that means the government must decide to do that.

May is still hoping that the UK will be able to access EU security/criminal databases after Brexit. Systems that the EU sets up and pays for. It seems there are good reasons not to leave the EU 'in entirety' as many of the things are useful.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:07 pm 
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A couple of years ago the local paper reported a huge scandal where gangs of Eastern European 'workers' were going from town to town, claiming huge amounts of welfare and housing benefits, including for dozens of non-existnent children, as well as stealing and committing other serious crimes.

In the dock, not ONE of the accused seemed to speak ONE word of English, although that was probably a strategy.

If they did speak hardly any English, they seemed to cope very well with the complex and fraudulent business of claiming.

Yeah, yeah. Here come the defenders.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Do you think benefit fraud will suddenly stop after Brexit? It won't, will it.

The only thing that will help is more government staff and police, more stringent document checking systems, chasing up any anomalies and so on. More money put into it in other words. Will that happen I wonder? Given the Tory cuts of late it seems unlikely.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
Do you think benefit fraud will suddenly stop after Brexit? It won't, will it.

The only thing that will help is more government staff and police, more stringent document checking systems, chasing up any anomalies and so on. More money put into it in other words. Will that happen I wonder? Given the Tory cuts of late it seems unlikely.


You never stop do you ? Spend spend spend, we have loads of dosh. When will you face the reality that we owe an absolute fortune and already spend more than we earn.

Anya is right, we have allowed into our country huge numbers of people who are deeply embedded in crime, that are costing us a fortune. Kick em out and don't allow anymore in. Look in the newspapers any day of the week and you will see the serious crime involving newcomers.

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