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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:48 am 
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I doubt there would ever be a referendum on a piece of welfare policy of that nature, but any referendum is held because the government wants to hold it! For whatever reason. To make a significant policy change, to get themselves elected.... Cameron only held the EU one because he could see Tory support melting away to ukip because of this issue.

The rules of any referendum are contained in the specific piece of legislation created for that referendum.
But a future government can have more referenda, change laws...

There seems to be a misconception that one referendum somehow binds everyone for ever (or at least years and years), just because it was a democratic vote at one point in time.

A two-tier EU isn't a new idea but it's more likely to be an inner Eurozone and an outer zone using their own currency. The notion of richer countries helping poorer is a fundamental rule and has been since the start. Those were the terms on which the UK joined, back in the Seventies.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:21 pm 
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...Cameron only held the EU one because he could see Tory support melting away to ukip because of this issue...

And to find out if the UKIPers had a point he called the referendum.

And they did. The majority voted out.

It also put UKIP out of business at the same time as their aim was achieved. They could never have got enough votes to take power anyway. So in a way it helped Cameron by removing a troublesome party that was gaining strength.


...The notion of richer countries helping poorer is a fundamental rule and has been since the start. ...

It appears to be more a case of trying to prevent these old Eastern Bloc countries from walking back into the embrace of Mother Russia.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:38 pm 
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And given that the EU-SSR produces more and more poverty, in so many member states, they are running out of countries with a reasonable economy, to support everyone else.

Even Germany is having economic problems.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:38 pm 
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So, rumour that May is going to go for the whole of the UK staying in a 'temporary' but open-ended customs union with the EU.

To run on past March and be replaced during a transition period with....with.... something else. Possibly.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Anya wrote:
And given that the EU-SSR produces more and more poverty, in so many member states, they are running out of countries with a reasonable economy, to support everyone else.

Even Germany is having economic problems.


Do you think these countries with poverty would do better if they left the EU? How would that work if they no longer had the free trade or the financial help?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Beyond me how the EU produces poverty, quite the opposite in fact.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:29 pm 
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Purwell wrote:
Beyond me how the EU produces poverty, quite the opposite in fact.


Tell Greece that!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:13 am 
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John o Wirral wrote:
Purwell wrote:
Beyond me how the EU produces poverty, quite the opposite in fact.


Tell Greece that!

You tell me how the EU did that, because I don't see it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:23 am 
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One word answer. The euro.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:01 am 
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The Euro was the sole reason for the Greek debt crisis?

You can't be serious.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:52 am 
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The Unfair Euro to be precise.
The One state currency just doesn't work it's a Communist idea and will never work for a mixed community with different values and wages of the EU.

Its what Hitler wanted in his plans before the war.
The Germans are just obeying ze orders

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Can't you look at the modern world without talking about the war?

Clue - it's changed a lot.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Less educated British men employed in manual work, who are thought to have voted overwhelmingly for Leave, are set to be hit hardest by Brexit.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-10-04/manual-workers-could-be-among-hardest-hit-by-brexit-warns-ifs/


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
The Euro was the sole reason for the Greek debt crisis?

You can't be serious.

Maybe not the sole reason, but certainly a major contributor. William Hague said the euro is "a burning building with no exits" for some of the countries which adopted the currency. He said this on 28 Sep 2011 - and has been proved to be correct.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:46 pm 
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There are many reasons why Greece became beleaguered with debt, requiring help from other Eurozone countries.

A lot was down to the policies of its own governments, relating to public spending, loans and taxes, the hiding of the true extent of the debt (by them) and of course, external pressures from the global recession.

They have also (along with Italy) borne the brunt of boat landings by refugees, but this would have happened whether they were in the Euro or not. Again the EU have helped them cope.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:24 pm 
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Basically Greece took the easy money when it was offered. But didn't manage it properly. Then the political situation changed they were scuppered.

Same thing happens to people every day.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 7:43 am 
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Lighthouse wrote:
Can't you look at the modern world without talking about the war?

Clue - it's changed a lot.

The second world war was an absolutely cataclysmic event - and so was the Great War of 1914-18. As a result of these wars, not only was the whole previous status quo of many countries totally changed, much different philosophies forced on their citizens, boundaries changed - and much else. So although these events took place a long time ago, their consequences still reverberate today. The Windsors were one of the lucky few Royal Houses who didn't go the same way as the Romanovs, the Habsburgs and the Hohenzollerns - and probably only survived by changing their name from Saxe-Coburg to Windsor!
It was really the Great War that sparked it all off and as far as Europe was concerned, the Treaty of Versailles had much to do with why we were once again at war, with the same enemy, only 25 years later. Decisions made as a consequence of this war, still reverberate very strongly, in the Middle East. From decisions which were made 100 years ago! Much of the modern world was shaped by these events, so why do you have a problem with people making reference to them?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:44 am 
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I have no problem at all with thoughtfully referencing any historic event, if it's relevant today.

But harking back to Hitler and reducing the 21st Century EU to crass remarks like "The Germans are just obeying ze orders" isn't that.

I wonder how many Brexit voters were motivated by blaming modern-day Germans for the war and resenting that the country has been thriving economically of late. WE were supposed to have won and now they are winning!! Well, the UK was doing very well as an EU member too and now we are risking that. Cutting off our nose to spite our face.

I wouldn't be bothered if such voters had a convincing plan for future success, instead of just 'wartime spirit' type of blind faith. The country is losing money, is terribly politically and socially divided and the very voters who wanted this most stand to lose the most, apart from a select group of uber wealthy hedge-funders who have taken a punt on it and paid for the propaganda that convinces turkeys to vote for Christmas.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:50 am 
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As usual, you see only the downsides as (wrongly!) predicted by Project Fear. You fail to take into account, the huge opportunities a global Britain will have, once released from the dead hand of the EU.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 8:55 am 
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Opportunities that we don't have at the moment? Can you give any examples of what you're looking forward to?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:07 pm 
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John o Wirral wrote:
Purwell wrote:
Beyond me how the EU produces poverty, quite the opposite in fact.


Tell Greece that!

Exactly, plus Italy, which is at this time "sticking a large finger" up to the Bureaucrats in Brussels as to a new proposals in their Budget. But the real concern is the growing election in National Elections all over the EU,of the Far Right.
Some should if possible cast their minds back to the 30's when Europe was struggling, and then look to what is happening today.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, many parts of France, some of the recently joined members .... all suffering dire economic problems. Sixty percent unemployment among their young people and no improvement. Even Germany now has problems. And the Germans only have themselves to blame, falsifying their vehicle pollution figures, so blatantly and for so many years.

Inevitably, buyers in Europe and around the world have been asking what else German manufacturers have been falsifying.

The EURO proved too inflexible for many member countries. Some had robust economies in the past. Greece was just a joke but the Greek economy always has been a joke.

Portugal, Spain and other member countries are not flooded with migrants. Greece, Italy, Malta .... have been complaining bitterly what LITTLE help the Brussels buffoons have been providing.

The blind and fanatical followers of the EU-SSR simply refuse to look at any evidence.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:11 pm 
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Youth unemployment in those countries you mention is nowhere near 60%. Even Greece. What source are you using?

The EU has given help to the countries receiving most refugees. I'm sure more could be done (can't it always) but some countries didn't want to do that - the UK for example.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:34 pm 
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Lighthouse wrote:
The Euro was the sole reason for the Greek debt crisis?

You can't be serious.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/a-g ... a-country/

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:52 pm 
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That article doesn't say that the Euro caused all Greece's economic woes.

It's criticising the measures put in place to alleviate the debt over several years. Do you agree that banks with exposure to this debt should have just written it off instead? There were/are British banks who had loans to Greece... that would have had a knock-on effect on us the customers, are you prepared for that to happen.

Do you agree that we should give them back the Elgin marbles as a helpful offering.


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