Perseverance will get you anywhere!

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Norm
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Norm »

Stormy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:01 pm
So what are you saying? That all scientific and technological advances should be shelved until all people in poverty are brought out of it?
No. I'm saying it's worth considering the cost versus the benefits, as we do for every other government expenditure.

In this case, I think the cost is very small comparatively, and the benefits to scientific knowledge are great...so if I were asked 'do I support a space program' my answer would be yes.

BUT it is legitimate to ask the question, and not to be shouted down by people crying 'party pooper'.

The other Dave.
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by The other Dave. »

The problem here is that we know the reasons for poverty, homelessness etc, have done for years.

And the answers are already known. It is the people themselves that are mostly to blame for the circumstances they are in.

Not always. But often enough.

If people won't 'heal' themselves, there is nothing a 'non-authoritarian' government can do about it.

I know this will rile a few folks here. But if you look deeply into most of there cases you can see they could have been avoided.

But you see, we are too 'liberal', 'civilised' to really do anything about it.

Dave.
Once in love you're never out of danger.
One hot night spent with a stranger.
All you wanted was somebody to hold on to.

Passion.

The other Dave.
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by The other Dave. »

This business of running an internal combustion engine on water always raises a few hackles.

You both can and can't do this.

Firstly, you do need to break the water into it's constituent parts. Hydrogen and Oxygen.

Then you have two choices. You either collect the Hydrogen separately and discard the Oxygen (or save it for some other purpose), or you burn the combination of gases together as a fuel and an oxidizer.

First, consider what happens inside a car engine. Stick to petrol engine four strokes. Single cylinder.

A mixture of petrol /air is drawn or injected into the cylinder above the piston.
This mixture is compressed by the rising piston.
At the appropriate moment a spark ignites the mix and the resulting expansion of the explosion forces the piston down.

The next revolution of the crank expels the burnt gasses and poisons any passing cyclists.

Then it all repeats.

So, all you need is an explosion above the piston that creates a gas pressure to push the piston down. Easy peasey.

Now, and Norm will confirm this.
The mixture of oxygen and Hydrogen (let's call it hydroxy) burns very quickly. It is an extremely fast and violent explosion and the pressure wave travels at huge speed.
You can ignite it above a piston in a cylinder and it will indeed provide the pressure to push down the piston.
So in theory you can run an engine. And you can in practice.

But it is very difficult to do this. The problems start with timing the firing point. Then you have to VERY carefully regulate the gas flow.
Lots of experimenters have blown their engines (and themselves) to bits doing this.
But make no mistake, it can be done. With a bit of ingenuity and a lot of nerve.

However, it is not economically viable as a vehicle fuel source. The power to split the water (electrolysis) has to come from the vehicle alternator. And it takes a lot of Amps to produce a decent amount of hydroxy. There is no perpetual motion going on here. I.e motor drives alternator to make power to produce fuel to drive motor.

Also, this stuff is so dangerous you can't safely store it in cylinders like,say. propane. You have to make it as you need it. Hence the importance of the control systems.

The concept is simple, but it really is rocket science when you try to make it work at street level.

How do I know ? I have (rather was) heavily into this a few years ago.

Still have my experimental 'reactor'.

But some son of a camel driver's whore stole all my batteries. So I gave up on it.

But it is an interesting subject.

Beware of snake oil vendors.

Dave.
Once in love you're never out of danger.
One hot night spent with a stranger.
All you wanted was somebody to hold on to.

Passion.

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Norm
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Norm »

So the 5 year old child is responsible for his own poverty?

And there's nothing that can be done about it? It's just that God (if you believe in him) made damaged goods?

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Norm
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Norm »

Agree, Dave.

You can separate H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen using energy...the process called electrolysis (lysis means to split, and electro is obvious).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis It consumes energy to do that.

Then if you wish, you can take that Hydrogen and Oxygen and feed them in the same proportions through an internal combustion engine. Or you can put them through a 'Fuel Cell' where they're combined using a catalyst (no combustion) and they form water. And give off energy.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion

The amount of energy consumed to change Water to Hydrogen and Oxygen is exactly equal to the amount of energy given off by combusting the Hydrogen and Oxygen to form water. Or from combining them in a fuel cell.

That of course is 'theoretical energy'...the engine or the fuel cell then uses up some of that energy in the form of friction etc and the actual energy available is as Stormy says less than what was given off from combustion.

There is no 'magical energy equation' where water can be used as a fuel to provide energy. There is no chemical reaction for that.

The law of conservation of energy...first law of thermodynamics says 'energy is neither created nor destroyed' (except in nuclear reactions where it is converted to mass).

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Stormy
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Stormy »

It's a complete non starter. The Laws of Thermodynamics are the lion in the path. Especially as the majority of the potential energy stored in the hydrogen as it combines with oxygen in the cylinder, liberated during expensive electrolysis, is lost as excess heat. Ask yourself. Where does the considerable electrical energy required to split water into it's constituent elements come from?
Cthulhu fhtagn!

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Rose
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Rose »

Stories about space travel have always captured our imaginations and inspired us. Just think of all we've learned about this fascinating planet, and the universe.

Through solving problems for space travel, NASA invented the artificial heart pump, Teflon, and so much more...

Some NASA inventions we use in everyday life:

*Artificial limbs, scratch resistant lenses, the insulin pump, firefighting equipment, the DustBuster, Laser eye surgery, structural shock absorbers, Solar cells, water filtration, better tires/tyres, wireless headsets, airplane winglets, invisible braces (for teeth), freeze-dried foods, cellphone cameras, CAT scans, baby formula, Lifeshears (to cut into cars or collapsed buildings to rescue those trapped inside), grooved pavement, air purifiers, Memory Foam, resistance-based workout machines, insulation, Infrared ear thermometers, ice-resistant airplanes, portable computers, LEDs, Modern Food Safety Guidelines, the computer mouse, and athletic shoes...

*https://247wallst.com/special-report/20 ... veryday/7/

The money we spent on space exploration has improved all our lives, here, on earth.
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The other Dave.
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by The other Dave. »

Norm wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:23 pm
So the 5 year old child is responsible for his own poverty?

And there's nothing that can be done about it? It's just that God (if you believe in him) made damaged goods?
Talking about adults here, not children.
Once in love you're never out of danger.
One hot night spent with a stranger.
All you wanted was somebody to hold on to.

Passion.

The other Dave.
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by The other Dave. »

Stormy wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:02 pm
It's a complete non starter. The Laws of Thermodynamics are the lion in the path. Especially as the majority of the potential energy stored in the hydrogen as it combines with oxygen in the cylinder, liberated during expensive electrolysis, is lost as excess heat. Ask yourself. Where does the considerable electrical energy required to split water into it's constituent elements come from?
I thought I had explained that above. And why as a fuel it is a non-starter.

Internal combustion engines are inherently inefficient, we all know that.

There is no Free Lunch, it's all a matter of reducing the cost of the lunch to manageable proportions.
Once in love you're never out of danger.
One hot night spent with a stranger.
All you wanted was somebody to hold on to.

Passion.

The other Dave.
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by The other Dave. »

Norm,

..The amount of energy consumed to change Water to Hydrogen and Oxygen is exactly equal to the amount of energy given off by combusting the Hydrogen and Oxygen to form water. Or from combining them in a fuel cell.

That of course is 'theoretical energy'...the engine or the fuel cell then uses up some of that energy in the form of friction etc and the actual energy available is as Stormy says less than what was given off from combustion.

There is no 'magical energy equation' where water can be used as a fuel to provide energy. There is no chemical reaction for that..
.

Yes, I'm aware of all that. And I covered it in my bit above.

But the original assertion was that you can't run an engine on water. I agree.

But you don't run an IC engine on crude straight out of the ground. You have to spend a lot of effort distilling it into gasoline or Diesel fuel first. I can (and occasionally do ) run my Diesel cars on Veg oil or Bio-Diesel. Both require some processing first. But it is doable.

Even if the cars were to run on hydrogen via fuel cells, it still has to be provided with the required infrastructure.

So, maybe lower pollution, but definitely no free lunch.
Once in love you're never out of danger.
One hot night spent with a stranger.
All you wanted was somebody to hold on to.

Passion.

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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Anya »

Stormy - You are sad that people are not jumping up and down with glee because a probe got to Mars.

Space exploration is fine and takes a minimum of resources. Fifty years ago, humans got to the moon (allegedly) with MUCH less computer power than an old mobile phone and the whole thing was just one massive political yaboo-to-you. Since then, little has resulted from space exploration that will make a lot of difference to this planet and human life, generally.

The hardware on Mars may do no damage and scientific exploration is what humans do. Certainly better than wars and destruction, which produce immense amounts of poverty and misery.

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Stormy
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Stormy »

Sad? I'm not sad. Why should I be? Whether people are impressed or angered about the Perseverance mission is their own business, you can please some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time but you can't please all the people all the time.
Is there intelligent life out there? Perhaps the first you'll know is when a strange looking buggy falls from the sky and starts digging up your lawn.
Cthulhu fhtagn!

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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by The other Dave. »

One needs to bear in mind that one day, if it is to survive at all, the human race will have to move to somewhere far, far away.

It has no choice.

So better get the tech sorted now.
Once in love you're never out of danger.
One hot night spent with a stranger.
All you wanted was somebody to hold on to.

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Norm
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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Norm »

We only have 7.5 billion years left to plan for that.

If we don't do something about climate change, mass extinction, loss of biodiversity, and the collapse of the ocean and land ecosystems, even less.

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Re: Perseverance will get you anywhere!

Post by Stormy »

Don't think any of us are going to be inconvenienced by it!
Cthulhu fhtagn!

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